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Problems with Level Progression

Foirie

New Magician
Minecraft IGN: foirie
Honeybadger Auralock Dark Follower Phoenix Werewolf
#1
So a while ago I made a forum post called "A structured critique of Revelius" and while many people said it was good I'm not happy with how it turned out. I wrote it at 5:30am half asleep and despite what the title said, by the end it was poorly structured and didn't push my point across very well. In order to rectify my mistakes I'm going to be releasing a series of forum posts talking about individual problems with revelius with more depth and more room to talk about ways to rectify these errors.

In this Forum post I'm going to go over what is wrong with the EXP system and the amounts of exp you recieve for completing certain objectives. Furthermore, I will very briefly go over Potterworlds almost "Identity Crisis" on what sort of server it wants to be.

The methods currently available to earn EXP.
Currently there are 3 main methods to earn EXP. Killing mobs, Quests, and AC.
Before I begin I would like you all to take my numbers with a grain of salt, they are NOT exact however I've asked many people who are leveling for references.
AC is by far the most productive and easiest way of getting Experience. However, while it is the fastest method of leveling it by no means makes things easy for players. Someone who is level 68 needs 7Million EXP in order to level up, whilst they only get 500k EXP from 10ac. This means in order to level up they'd need 140 AC. Now, as you level up the Required EXP per level also grows exponentially, but as I don't have the numbers for the exact EXP requirements I'm just going to imagine every level from level 68 to 80 needs 7mil EXP. This would mean a player would need to accumulate 1680 AC to get from level 68 to max level. Further exaggerating this problem is the increasing rarity of written classes. Many classes that would normally give someone the opportunity to get EXP are growing increasingly rare as the amount of Dueling, Flying, and WizPE classes increase. Only very good duelists can come first in order to get the maximum amount of XP, and as a level 71 fighting level 80 duelers there's very little chance. Flying has only 1 winner per house and parkour only 3 people can win. This means that most of the time you'll be receiving 15 ac per class and if you want to go from level 68 to level 80 you'll need over 100 of these classes. Pre Revelius 10ac would automatically just give 10% of a level, just having this would be a big step up from what it is currently.

When it comes to quests, they give very, very little experience until around year 7. One of my friends in year 6 did every quest, year 1 through year 6 all quests available and only got half a level. When they hit year 7 they leveled up from the EXP, but once again a single level isn't very much, and when someone becomes a graduate there's only 1 quest, which gives the same amount of EXP as 10AC. This is nowhere near enough especially for a grad when leveling starts becoming very very difficult. The amount of EXP from quests needs to increase, on servers like Wynncraft typically it would only be 1 or 2 quests per level. A common trend is as the amount of quests available increases the experience reward decreases, Potterworld has a very, very limited selection of quests and this problem is exaggerated by the map. The map itself is very good, the builds I enjoy, however between the builds it's just empty space, forests trees that only serve to eat your time and drain your gold and the travel isn't enjoyable or fun and only serves to drive away players. I personally couldn't bring myself to do quests despite the 70k gold reward as even with my Fireflash broom, which is significantly faster than new players brooms, I didn't want to waste my time flying 3000 blocks, to spend half an hour killing something, and then fly another 3000blocks to a different NPC. Alongside better rewards the quests need to be more local, and have more variety. At the moment quests are either some sort of obstacle course (elytra or parkour) some sort of riddle or a fetch quest. These quests need more variety, the plots of the quests need to be more extravagant, adding in cutscenes instead of simply hovering over an icon and reading a wall of text would be a huge step forward that I'm confident Potterworld could do, (Kyla in the Revenant Dungeon had dialogue, most bosses all had dialogue and queues, it is well within the staff teams ability to create cutscenes) just the mere addition of cutscenes would make you feel so much more involved in quests, like you're actually IN a world.

Mob XP is trivial, when you have 7mil required EXP and get 7k EXP per kill its just nothing. I know people that spent entire days, 7 hours grinding killing mobs and only got half a level. This isn't a viable strategy, and can't be considered a viable strategy until the EXP reward is increased. Most games don't have you level from killing mobs, they put in enough quests and activities that a player very, very rarely has to actually grind mobs, and mob EXP is just a small feature if someone is very close to leveling but doesn't want to start a new quest.

Finally I would like to cover what I believe to be the most critical with Leveling. It doesn't appeal to any audience. Potterworld is trying to move in a more MMORPG direction as oppose to the more community driven server it was Pre Revelius. I'm not head staff, I don't decide which direction they take the server and it is up to them if they want to make Potterworld an MMORPG. However, you can't appeal to both audiences. Potterworld still has classes and it is still possible to roleplay. However roleplayers need to treck thousands of blocks if they want to roleplay. The community element of Potterworld is severely diminished too as, while the great hall used to be bubbling with players, a hub of events its now empty, the parkour, mazes and droppers people would do passively while talking have also been removed giving people no option other than do nothing or kill mobs. And MMORPG players don't have any reason to play on Potterworld. You can't expect someone who plays proper MMOs like WoW or ESO, or even Wynncraft to spend half an hour taking notes in class and writing an essay, or sitting for 45 minutes for their turn in dueling so they can get 15 AC. Potterworld neglected its current players whilst giving a very, very, limited and superficial appeal to RPG players. It needs to choose, either Potterworld is for people looking for a Harry Potter experience, where you go to classes and run around Hogwarts, or an MMO where you do quests and level up. It can't be both. You can't expect someone who wants to be harry potter to grind mobs for countless hours, and you can't expect an RPG player to spend hours in creative writing classes.

Thanks for reading, I hope this much more focused forum post was able to provide constructive criticism, I reread it and made sure that I put ways to improve the server to couple majority of my criticisms. I don't want to cause trouble and say the server's bad, I don't want to point out its flaws and laugh. I want to see whats wrong, say why it's wrong, and try to give suggestions as to how they could be fixed.
If you agreed, or disagreed with my points, please reply. I want to get more suggestions and ideas going in this thread so that we can actively work together as a community to help make the server better :)
 

NSgaming

Magician
Staff
Minecraft IGN: NSgaming
Auralock Dark Follower Staff Griffin Phoenix Werewolf Lore Keeper Lead Game Designer Lead
#2
Hey Foirie!

I wanted to thank you for the feedback. It means a lot to me, and I’m sure the rest of the GD team as well, that you’ve written this feedback, and I also wanted to thank you for keeping it constructive- I believe it’s the only way we’re able to have productive conversations.

Now, a little bit of background about myself. I’ve been part of Potterworld since the server's first year. I’ve watched it grow and evolve over its lifespan, both from a player perspective and now as someone who works in Game Design. I’ve seen things from both points of view, and I really do attempt to view the work I do through a player lens as well, whenever possible, though I recognize that isn’t unbiased.

Now, let’s get into your feedback, shall we? There’s a lot to dissect here.

The largest problem that I’m seeing based on what you’ve written is about the progression in the game, and the seeming identity crisis between the server being a Harry Potter RPG and an MMO. This is something we’re always mindful of, and something that we’ve had discussions about a lot. I can tell you that we’re constantly grappling with these two ideas. Our stance at this point is all about the power of opportunity. Harry Potter’s story is done. Finished. Even if we did try to continue it, I doubt we would be able to do it justice in the way the player base would want us to. Many people come to the server looking for a Harry Potter recreation, but the server, at its core, isn’t about Harry Potter. It's about you, the player. You are always the central role. The hero of your own story. Now, the world evolves and exists without the player, but when you do choose to interact with it, you step into the story and become the main character. Now, what that does give us the opportunity to do is give players the power of choice. If you’re a player who’s here because you want to roleplay as a student, and only go to classes, and hang out around the castle, you can do that! It will take longer to progress, because you’re not experiencing everything we have to offer, but that option is always open to players. If you just want to explore the world and wander across characters, you can do that too! Or if you’re really in an MMO mood, you can look at your quest book and do quests in order as you unlock them, while also exploring around, killing mobs, crafting magical gear, and finding secrets. We want to be able to offer players these choices because at the end of the day, it's your story.

With that being said, is everything balanced? No. Will it ever be? Probably Not. Balancing games is something that is always a struggle, no matter if you’re a AAA game developer or a small-time volunteer Minecraft server. Balance changes are always in the works, and that’s about as much as I’m allowed to say. We’ll try different things here and there. Will it always work? Probably not, but we’re willing to try new things. Specifically regarding the imbalance between classes, I’m not too sure on this as I’m not in Academics, though I do know that they’re always making changes as well.

In regards to the XP- you’re absolutely correct that it works exponentially. You gave an example where a year 6 did all of the year 1-6 quests and only got half a level of XP. This is intentional, as they were pretty far above the levels needed to complete the quest. With the gear that's expected of a 6th year, you should be able to defeat all of the mobs in those quests fairly easily. Not only that, but many of the lower year quests either act as a tutorial or are shorter than those once you get to higher levels.

Now, what I will say is that Revelius was much more than a gameplay update. It gave us a framework that we can build off of as we move into the future. That means tweaking, rebalancing, but it also means we’re more easily able to add in future gameplay updates. Who’s to say we wouldn’t add more to the map? ;)

Last thing I’ll address as I’ve been writing for quite some time now is your feedback about quests.

I’ll be the first to admit that our quests can always be better- and we always strive to make them better. In regards to your feedback about keeping the quests more local, we actually did specifically try to keep the quests contained in a specific area. You’ll notice we haven’t designed a quest where you have to fly from Hogsworth to London, or from Tristmoor to Gnollberg Port. Even when you DO go to further areas for the first time, we usually have a quest that guides you there. For example, when you hit a certain level, you complete a quest where you take the train back to london, where there are then more quests in that location. If you could give examples for quests where you have to travel 3000 blocks, that would be really helpful for us. In regards to the quests themselves, we’re always working on improving the tech and they’re always giving us Unspeakables cool new tech to play around with that will eventually make it into the quests. For my sake, could you give examples of what you would want to see in future quests besides the parkour, elytra, puzzle, riddle, or boss fights? For the plots of quests, I’m not quite sure what you mean by “more extravagant”? Do you mean storywise, as in having the stories be “grander” if that makes sense? techwise? or both? If you can provide any examples where there was a quest that you really enjoyed, please let me know, so we can learn from them. In regards to having messages in chat and not in a GUI, we actually changed this system away from chat a while ago, as players would complain about missing messages that were essential to the quest. Not sure if we would go back, or perhaps have a hybrid of both? Something I can bring up. I’m not sure what you mean by bosses having queues? I don't believe we ever had a queue system for quests. As for cutscenes, we sadly don’t have the backend tech to effectively do cutscenes in the way we would want to do them.

I hope this provides some feedback with some insight from the Unspeakable side of things, and continues the conversation. This is a super important conversation to have, so I thank you for being respectful and honest. If there’s any other questions, let me know, and if you could answer my questions throughout my response, it will provide a lot of good insight for me, at the very least. I look forward to continuing this discussion!
 

luckiestblock

Animorphus
Minecraft IGN: luckiestblock
Honeybadger
#3
Interesting points here.

I have completed all the quests in the quest book and I can say very generally..... I like the quests. I agree that that there should be more variety but maybe that IS just me because I completed them all in a short space of time. Another thing is, if you could change quests to increase variety, what could they add for quests to increase variety? I genuinely don’t know, I am not super creative so maybe I am blanking but I can’t think of anything major. And tbh a lot of the more strange quest stuff not normally seen I didn’t like (the elytra section for me was brutal, it took hours :D ). Also 100% agree they should buff exp from quests, I did every single quest and I did not level up once when I was level 76.

Though in my opinion there have always been problems with Potterworld leveling so I don’t think a lot of it you can attribute to Revelius. I do agree with exp reform though, quests should be able to level you up considerably and the exp you get from mobs and classes should be increased.

Your point about the map being empty while not being particularly significant stuck with me because it was so true. Any argument against fast travel in the form of “It hinders exploration” is completely shattered when you learn that the terrain you fly over without looking at is pretty but admittedly bland, lacking any differentiation from the area 500 blocks away. And this is not difficult to fix either, they just have to add more stuff :D . Seeing Stonehenge or Appebly Village in game randomly was so fun not because it had a function but because it was different and cool looking! I do believe that the devs should focus on adding more stuff to the original island instead of expanding to other islands.

I do agree that the servers identify has always been questionable, for me I came for Harry Potter and stayed for the economy and gameplay. IMO a balance can be made and such a balance was cultivated before Revelius and broken in favor of the more RPG aspects. I think the balance can be restored by adding back better fast travel and adding back the fun and games department. I have a friend who used to do a lot of the more Harry Potter stuff but now almost never plays because a lot of the player interaction they liked is gone now by the removal of the Great Hall as the “hub” of sorts.

Finally I just wanted to say that overall, I am quite happy with the update. Even though I have a lot of qualms with it, like NS Gaming said Revelius is a building block for things to come and is the biggest change to Potterworld ever, so obviously it will be a bit rocky! But we will get through it, and I think that in a couple of months the server will be noticeably better, both from its current state and what it was before.
 

Foirie

New Magician
Minecraft IGN: foirie
Honeybadger Auralock Dark Follower Phoenix Werewolf
#4
Hey Foirie!
I’ll be the first to admit that our quests can always be better- and we always strive to make them better. In regards to your feedback about keeping the quests more local, we actually did specifically try to keep the quests contained in a specific area. You’ll notice we haven’t designed a quest where you have to fly from Hogsworth to London, or from Tristmoor to Gnollberg Port. Even when you DO go to further areas for the first time, we usually have a quest that guides you there. For example, when you hit a certain level, you complete a quest where you take the train back to london, where there are then more quests in that location. If you could give examples for quests where you have to travel 3000 blocks, that would be really helpful for us. In regards to the quests themselves, we’re always working on improving the tech and they’re always giving us Unspeakables cool new tech to play around with that will eventually make it into the quests. For my sake, could you give examples of what you would want to see in future quests besides the parkour, elytra, puzzle, riddle, or boss fights? For the plots of quests, I’m not quite sure what you mean by “more extravagant”? Do you mean storywise, as in having the stories be “grander” if that makes sense? techwise? or both? If you can provide any examples where there was a quest that you really enjoyed, please let me know, so we can learn from them. In regards to having messages in chat and not in a GUI, we actually changed this system away from chat a while ago, as players would complain about missing messages that were essential to the quest. Not sure if we would go back, or perhaps have a hybrid of both? Something I can bring up. I’m not sure what you mean by bosses having queues? I don't believe we ever had a queue system for quests. As for cutscenes, we sadly don’t have the backend tech to effectively do cutscenes in the way we would want to do them.
!
So first when I said about quests that make you fly 3000blocks I was exaggerating. The longest quest I've seen is one that has you fly from Hogsworth to Hogsend about 2000blocks. What I meant was that quests have too much travel. When the travel is by air and there's nothing to see in the map, all travel is limited. In games like the Witcher where you have to travel around to do quests, you don't mind it so much as the map's beautiful full of enemies and events, however with the current travel all quests should limit travel to as little as possible. I found myself being annoyed even when it was as small as go from a potions class to the back of the castle where fairies spawn. Even this small limited travel, while not detrimental to a players experience is extremely annoying, and when quests give so little experience there's almost no motivation to do quests below year 5 other than saying "I did all the quests."
"could you give examples of what you would want to see in future quests." I'm happy to do this, I find quests to be the best part of any game I play and want to see Potterworld reach higher quality quests. What you said about "We want to be able to offer players these choices because at the end of the day, it's your story. " is a key point that Potterworld doesn't use enough. Right now none of the quests actually have choices, the choices are, "Do I buy the ingredients for this quest or spend half an hour killing mobs?" what I think would be interesting to see is quests with branching paths. Moral decisions that force the player to think and engage in the game. Right now quests where you fly this way, kill these things, then fly back, just aren't engaging, they don't hold players attention. This what my point about quests being "more extravagant" was. I meant that by adding cutscenes, they make the player engage in the game and holds the players attention. I thought about why when I played Wynncraft I always read what the NPCs said but just skipped over it in Potterworld and I believe I figured out why. When a player is faced with just a wall of text to read it's daunting, and when all of the gameplay in the quests are the same a player has no need to. I vividly remember Wynncraft quests, like when I had to travel through time and fight santa, or save a man stuck in a time loop. You don't have these sorts of things on Potterworld. Even better would be having quests where you had to choose, do I kill this thing to save someone else or do I do nothing and watch people suffer. There are other types of quests, like in the Witcher where you have to track down bosses, follow their footsteps, broken treebranches, their scent to find them. These sort of quests are really fun and all of which could be implemented. When it comes to PVE it feels like the quests are built around the fact that you can only find mobs in one place. Just building quests where instead of spam killing 50 easy mobs, you have to make your way through a cave with difficult mobs, where you move forward, fight them, and then keep pushing on. Not like the Revenant or Dark Prison where you just run past hordes of enemies, these should be carefully placed mobs players are forced to fight and that pose a challenge. The build team has already proven themselves to be very talented, and creating spawners for certain mobs with Mythic Mobs plugin (the plugin used for Potterworld mobs) isn't hard, and there is already loads and loads of potential for creating small dungeons which are quests. Not like the Dark Prison where you need 5 people to go through it, just single player caves like you find in Skyrim, without bosses, just a nice small map you have to traverse to complete the quest.

I feel like at the end I started rambling and became very unstructured, so if you have any questions feel free to message me #Foire5281 my brains just full of ideas for quests and it's hard to formulate them accurately in a forum post.
 

Dwebbles

New Magician
Minecraft IGN: dwebbles
Honeybadger Dark Follower Phoenix
#5
Potterworld neglected its current players whilst giving a very, very, limited and superficial appeal to RPG players. It needs to choose, either Potterworld is for people looking for a Harry Potter experience, where you go to classes and run around Hogwarts, or an MMO where you do quests and level up. It can't be both. You can't expect someone who wants to be harry potter to grind mobs for countless hours, and you can't expect an RPG player to spend hours in creative writing classes.

^^
i felt this on a whole other level
 

Aviforma

Animorphus
Minecraft IGN: Aviforma
Auralock Dark Follower Phoenix Serpent SPEW
#6
Potterworld neglected its current players whilst giving a very, very, limited and superficial appeal to RPG players. It needs to choose, either Potterworld is for people looking for a Harry Potter experience, where you go to classes and run around Hogwarts, or an MMO where you do quests and level up. It can't be both. You can't expect someone who wants to be harry potter to grind mobs for countless hours, and you can't expect an RPG player to spend hours in creative writing classes.

^^
i felt this on a whole other level
I agree. Although Potterworld may be trying to split it between a MMO and roleplay server, it just isn't working. There are no MMO players being drawn in, and the community wants more roleplay.
 

Nyn

Professor
Minecraft IGN: xNyn
Auralock Dark Follower Griffin Phoenix Vampire Werewolf SPEW
#7
I agree with pretty much all of your points.

With quests, they can become slightly boring. The ideal quest for me would be something similar to Revenant. Although it was difficult and required a lot of time it was all near one location. I didn't have to spend ages travelling somewhere, I could just get straight to the fight and enjoy it.

I would also like to say I came to potterworld for Harry Potter, nothing else originally. I am still here for what is still left of Harry Potter - very little. I really enjoyed roleplay, I occasionally roleplay with a couple people. The rp events that I have been to (live alliance event, base destruction etc) were my favourite. Although the bast destruction event was very simple (and wasnt much to do honestly) it was still fun with the little you could do.
 

TallBlondeDude

Librarian
Minecraft IGN: TallBlondeDude
Auralock Dark Follower Phoenix Serpent Vampire Werewolf
#8
The community element of Potterworld is severely diminished too as, while the great hall used to be bubbling with players
I think this sums up what I miss most about pre rev, just logging on and running around the GH, seeing the people. Now besides games like quabbleball, it almost feels like a single player game.
 

Ashh

Librarian
Staff
Minecraft IGN: AzureAsh
Auralock Dark Follower Staff Phoenix Serpent Vampire Werewolf Discord Moderator SPEW Game Designer Lead
#10
Heya Foirie, and everyone else who has viewed and commented on this thread! Thanks so much for the time and effort you've taken to create this post and apologies for the delayed response. We really appreciate your perspective on level progression and other aspects of the Revelius Update! Noah made a lot of good points further up, especially about the MMO vs RPG issue you mention, but I'd like to take a second to respond to this myself.

We have taken the time after the Revelius Update released to see how the level progression has worked since the update, as well as everything else. We have seen the current difficulty with leveling up and how it is taking players far too long to level up. We are currently close to releasing a gear rework, and as mentioned by Deniz in a previous thread, we will be focusing on the leveling issue next and how to better the experience of leveling up for players. We will take what you have said into consideration, and will also be considering the other feedback we have received from players concerning leveling.

Touching on some other things you mentioned, we will be working on adding more quests, and we have been slowly adding them. We are also looking at how we can create better and more interactive quests for players to enjoy. In terms of the map, we will be working on adding new locations and features around the map, as well as world interactions. We have also been making fast travel easier for players through bettering the warpkey bag, lowering the firedust cooldown, and introduced various means of fast travel. If you'd like to see a more in depth explanation, you can see it here.

Due to everything that I've mentioned above, I'll be labeling this as 'On Hold' because of the fact that we'll be focusing on level progression soon. Thank you once again for this feedback!